dominion fertility lawsuit

After every disappointing result, he'd ask us in for follow up personal visit with a hug and a smile. We appreciated the candid repour but always professional. So far, that's where we are in the process! She is only credentialed as a gynecologist. Having talked through our options, he thought we were good candidates for both natural and stimulated. 6 eggs. Dr. D was awesome! Before seeing Dr. D, I went to my regular OB-GYN and went through the tormenting process of timing intercourse, clomid cycles, countless exams, and I even did fertility-focused acupuncture. I appreciate that I did not feel any pressure from him to pursue the more aggressive option. Wow! I interacted with multiple due to going between both Arlington and Bethesda clinic depending on where I was staying. I called my insurance prior to see if an auth was requested. Over multiple years I used up several lifetime limits on different insurance programs. His approach is one of minimal drugs and truly adhering to nature only transferring the number of embryos naturally conceived without any drugs. He also said if you had cancer, you would never question trying to get the best care for yourself. Dominion did not accept our insurance (Kaiser). I would receive a warm welcome from the team whenever I would go to the clinic it. Fact check or seek second opinions for the statistics for success she gives you at the initial consult. Accessibility Statement, Washington & Lee University School of Law Scholarly Commons, Virginia Supreme Court Records, Volume 250. I don't believe this is the case, but you might want to be prepared for that possibility as you consult with her. costs have been about $5k to the clinic and $500 for meds (but we've reached our max for fertility drugs). FAQ | It was very frustrating. Arlington location [Dominion Fertility] - clean, nice relaxing environment, modern, organized. The start of Dominion Voting Systems' $1.6 billion defamation trial against Fox News has been delayed until Tuesday as the parties pursue a potential settlement, Dr DiMattina was very honest. We really appreciated that he set his expectations for our care. She's my nurse and will be there with us through the whole process. Another strength of Dominion is that they have a very knowledgeable finance department. I do not know the rationale for this, but it seems to be a common protocol. And, when asking questions, I found it very helpful to have them at hand for a productive conversation. I had to always initiate questions or do research online to figure out information. On the day of my FET they even handed me a pineapple snack with a sweet message that said stick baby stick. If the egg retrievals had been during a weekend when he was not working, another doctor would have done them. She argued that the services were not PCP/GYN, which I dont disagree with. I never have to worry that I will not receive a call back when I have to leave the nurse or finance dept a message. At my initial consult, she really oversold how quick the IVF process would be for me given my age and unexplained diagnosis, which made it emotionally harder as we hit unexpected roadblocks and she didnt have any answers (or adjustments to our treatment) to help address it. and seen throughout this journey. and Dominion Fertility and Endocrinology Institute; and, Robert E. Cumberland v. O. Riley Boone, M.D., et al. Dr. D [DiMattina] was always upfront about the treatment. Most everything that occurs during a Natural Cycle IVF treatment (monitoring, egg retrieval, semen collection, fertilization, embryo transfer, etc.) They are all pleasant in person and seem to run a tight ship. It was more difficult to reach on the phone. I'm so blessed to have gotten pregnant the first FET. Once I asked however, the nurses and my coordinator were thorough and extremely helpful, but would have been even better to not have even needed to ask some of the generic questions in the first place. She is patient, thorough, accessible, and kind. This was great because it was the quarter of the cost of one cycle, and there were little use of extra hormones. He understands that we are seeking answers and options and he is clear about his expectations. We saw Dr. Gordon during most of our visits during monitoring, and he did all our procedures, so we really felt we got to know him and were sad he couldn't be with us through the whole pregnancy. After suffering a major loss, I do not want to add more risk to pregnancy -- something that is riskier than I had ever expected. 1 PGT normal embryo. Dr. Waud is very on top of recent research. I would say have a very thick skin and be prepared to advocate for yourself. Dr DiMattina was very honest. I felt safe (in every sense of the word, emotionally, physically, etc.) The monitoring hours start early and end at 9AM. I'm sure she hears this all the time, but Natalie was my go-to with my questions and just reassuring me everything was going to be okay; she was only a call away. The billing folks are not super clear, but having encountered others at other clinics, that seems to be par for the course. For my first one, I was under heavy narcotics. I used to get nervous that I would miss their calls and then I would have to leave another message and wait for their call again. Defendants misconduct robbed Ms. Doe of the ability to carry her own child, the lawsuit states. Besides Dr. Gordon, this is the best part about Dominion. Dr. Kay diagnosed me with PCOS without having my test results based on the fact that my periods were "irregular" (which they really aren't). Being poked with needles for blood draws and having sonograms every other day during follicle monitoring can be unpleasant, but the nurses remain positive and calm - and they all seem to know how to draw blood very delicately. He would tell us the good and the bad. First 3 cycles covered by insurance. As someone nervous with needles, this was HUGE. That cost did not include IVF meds ($5-9k), anesthesia for egg retrieval ($500), PGT-A testing ($150/embryo). (Assigned nurse: Amy (called me the most)). At Columbia Fertility, I felt like a number. She was extremely difficult to get a hold of outside of an office visit. I wouldn't classify myself as a high need patient so I didn't need a lot of attention. She always took the time to answer them, and she also gave me her email address to contact her when my husband and I were wrestling with doing IUI or IVF. Critical when undertaking a large financial commitment like IVF. This made me feel respected and cared forexcellent after-hours communication with the on-call nurse, and excellent communication through the portal How was your experience with Michael DiMattina at Dominion Fertility? They always greeted me with a smile and would greet me by my first name the moment I started my treatment. Whether a Describe your experience with your nurse at Dominion Fertility. I could never get over how many people were processed there each time I went in for monitoring, and it felt very impersonal, but at Dominion, they said hello to me by name at check-in. Period. The clinic [Dominion Fertility] is very clean and well-organized. I am not sure how I would have been able to get testing for something else and then send it to them without a written order. Ask questions so you are well informed about your care. He does not sugar coat his findings and treats you like a person. My experience was pretty mediocre. We arrived at Dr. Wauds office having already lost one single and one twin naturally conceived pregnancy. Dr D is very knowledgeable and explained everything in person. His greatest strength is his experience, knowledge, he's straight forward when interpreting the data, I needed that, I didn't want a doctor that didn't provide confidence. During my first cycle, I was told three different numbers at various points regarding how many of my eggs were mature. They were so caring and made us feel so at ease. Monitoring was relatively efficient. Because Virginia doesn't have a mandate for fertility treatment coverage through health care, patients pay for all of treatments out of pocket. However, they separate the blood draw from the sonogram and you are forced back into the waiting room a second time in between the two. And as far as a lawsuit, well, what happened happened. Dr. D also does frozen embryos only, because he states frozen embryos are more successful. I mostly communicated with my primary nurse through the portal. I feel very well taken care of by all of the staffAll of the nurses I have dealt with have been very competent and compassionate. I used an antagonist protocol with estrace starting on Day 19 before the IVF cycle, then 150 of Follistim and 150 of Menopur nightly until starting Ganirelex around mid-cycle. It was impossible to reach the doctor outside of an office visit. He will change what needs to be changed if a protocol does not work. Dominion Voting Systems on Friday filed a $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit against Fox News, alleging that the network pushed false accusations about the 2020 The clinic itself is clean, updated, and modern. Describe Susan Sarajari's approach to eSET (elective single embryo transfer) vs. multiple embryo transfer at Dominion Fertility. It is a comfortable place to receive treatment. I like the clinic [Dominion Fertility] a lot. He always thought that we would be a relatively straightforward case despite our prior failed transfers at another clinic. I know that this included some information she'd told us before, but she still took the time to rehash it for us. The BCP reset worked. They were our primary point of contact with the clinic, were very responsive, and answered many of our questions. The communication is terrible. I like the clinic a lot. Ratings of 1 indicate an unsatisfactory LGBTQ care. This was great because it was the quarter of the cost of one cycle, and there were little use of extra hormonesThe nurses are amazing! Once I finally had success and brought home a real live baby, I felt like I was bringing the baby to visit the "family" who made him possible. My FETs failed and again she just kind of shrugged. Describe the protocols Kay Waud used in your cycles at Dominion Fertility and their degree of success. After Intracytoplasmic Sperm Injection (ICSI), the 5 days, and Preimplantation Genetic Testing (PGD), I was left with only one healthy embryo. This may not work for all patients. I had insurance but they required me to leave a large deposit rather than billing through my insurance and then billing me. I feel very well taken care of by all of the staff. At Columbia, monitoring was absolutely a cattle call, but at Dominion, it was a well oiled machine. He's progressive (first to offer PGS and PGD along with natural cycle IVF, which worked for us on our 2nd pregnancy). They always greeted me with a smile and would greet me by my first name the moment I started my treatment. Weve been through several losses, which was not something she was dismissive of. Scheduling appointments has been easy and hassle-free. Also my best friend got pregnant at Dominion Fertility. I was generally able to schedule easily, but I did feel like it was difficult to get answers directly from the doctors outside of appointments, and my primary nurse changed several times. I was put on a daily dose of baby Aspirin to help with the lining of my uterus. Dr. Kay diagnosed me with PCOS without having my test results based on the fact that my periods were "irregular" (which they really aren't). Dr. Waud was really friendly, warm, and seemed truly empathetic when I experienced multiple setbacks with each retrieval or my transfer ending in a miscarriage. If you're the kind of patient who wants your hand held and wants to understand in detail every step of this process, he may not be your guy. Explore over 200 courses and lessons taught by leading fertility experts. When I called the nurse line for after hours care during miscarriage, the nurse on call was incredibly nonchalant, and I actually never heard from my primary nurse during that period of recovery which was disappointing. Both rounds suffered from poor blastulation. VA-SUPREME-COURT-RECORDS-VOL250 Dr. D only transfers one embryo if the embryos are PGS tested. Things to know are the same for all fertility offices - be prepared to pay prior to receiving services. Describe your experience with your nurse at Dominion Fertility. Describe your experience with your nurse at Dominion Fertility. When I did, I was given generic information that wasn't personalized to my specific needs. They had no idea what she was talking about. She was kind, but never made me feel comfortable in her diagnosis or decisions. Only one ovary responded to the medications, but the egg retrieval was successful. I am currently 11 weeks pregnant and remaining hopeful! My experience was pretty mediocre. They want to have a health mom and baby compared to multiple pregnancies which may cause complications during pregnancy. I always felt like they had my best interests in mind and they remembered things and followed upIt's a small enough clinic that you get personalized attention and people remember your name, but they're very bad at information sharing. He always took the time to explain things during meetings when a transfer did not work. I didn't particular feel like a number to Dr. Sarajari but I also didn't necessary feel super attended to or well informed. I can only talk about the [Dominion Fertility] Arlington location since all my visits where there. Prior to my graduation from the clinic, Dr DiMattina performed my pregnancy sonogram himself. The clinic is very clean and well-organized. A crucial report showing the karyotype of our miscarriage was left out of this paperwork, and it took a lot of back and forth and non-responsiveness to resolve. The nursing staff is compassionate, organized, friendly, and helpful. Every other doctor called that the "embryo. Ratings of 1 indicate an unsatisfactory billing department. The financial counselor is clear and upfront about costs, and she has been very helpful with communicating with the insurance company on my behalf. I had to always initiate questions or do research online to figure out informationI wouldn't classify myself as a high need patient so I didn't need a lot of attention. We had a lot of procedures that did not result in a pregnancy, and he was there for my pregnancies that ended in miscarriage. Even after failed transfers it was hard to get her to return my calls. I think she oversells. Dominion filed its lawsuit against Giuliani on Jan. 25, saying in a press release at the time that he "actively propagated disinformation to purposefully mislead I got to know the front desk staff so well on my last day I did say I was going to miss them. They don't give you lab results or even basic information about procedure outcomes unless you chase them down. The clinic [Dominion Fertility] started early which was very convenient for my work scheduleHolli and the nursing staff took great care of us. The Delaware judge overseeing Dominion I worked with Leslie Jackson and continue to feel disappointed and frustrated. It's very convenient, clean, easy to schedule appointments, and organized. Limited activities during the two week wait after transfer. Dr. Gordon seems to be a good professional and a very nice person. Dr. Kay did not perform any of the major procedures in our Natural Cycle IVF treatment (Dr. DiMattina did that), but my experience with her as a patient in consult and diagnostics was very positive. Paid out of pocket for last 2. I believe Dr. D played a huge role in that. Then I had a mock embryo transfer (standard) and a successful frozen embryo transfer. FILE - A headline about President Donald Trump is displayed outside Fox News studios in New York on Nov. 28, 2018. He was communicative therefore I never had questionsThe strategy he used that ultimately led to pregnancy for me was putting me on birth control pills to reset my hormones. (Assigned nurse: Natalie Sophia). I can't say enough about the incredible nursing staff and coordinators at Dominion Fertility Arlington. He has been supportive and has given us good advice that enabled us to make an informed decision in deciding whether to continue with IUI treatments or to move on to more aggressive treatment measures, such as IVF. The business side of the clinic is disorganized; they didn't keep. Unfortunately they failed to keep a proper accounting of the deposit and billed me for things that should have been paid from the deposit, even threatening to postpone my procedures if I didn't give them more money. They helped battle my insurance on multiple occasions - even getting on a three-way call with me and them a few times to resolve matters. My employer covered fertility treatments 100% so I was very fortunate not to have paid anything except for the cryopreservation of embryos. We start next cycle. There's only metered street parking, but there are tons of spaces so you don't have to worry about driving around the block multiple times. The day of the egg collection I was beyond nervous, and they kept rooting for me. I have always felt very comforted by the staff at Dominion. I love the nurses at Dominion. However, it was our decision to do stimulated in the end because we knew our insurance only allowed us to do one round, and we decided it was best in our situation. She has been a superstar from the very beginning. My egg retrieval went perfectly. I go back to Leslie again expressing my frustration as I have spent A LOT of time and energy on this matter with little support from her. Despite repeated attempts, Dr. D. consistently refused to answer questions specific to my case. WebIn the lawsuit, Dominion said MyPillow's use of online promotional codes like "QAnon" and "FightforTrump," as well as Lindell's election-fraud allegations, caused sales to jump 40%. 941923, Hon. By Melissa Quinn. Describe your experience with your nurse at Dominion Fertility. I was usually in and out between 30-45 minutes. When I would ask, he would either resort to flattering platitudes or tout his own expertise, but he would not give me details when I was trying to better understand my own treatment. Dr. Gordon does not encourage multiple embryo transfer because it is more high risk. 941410 and The Circuit Court of Loudoun County, Virginia, Record No. Ask this reviewer a question about their experience with Susan Sarajari at Dominion Fertility. The place seems well-run and we have never had to wait too long to be seen. We were generally in and out with about half an hour. He diagnose my husband with low morphology (1%) and recommended that we proceed with IVF. I never felt that he didn't take my concerns seriously or that he did not understand how difficult it is to start to try and conceive again after having a stillborn a year ago. Dr. Gordon's hopeful and optimistic attitude combined with his frankness when describing expectations and risks was very much appreciated. How was your experience with John David Gordon at Dominion Fertility? Rupert Murdoch made his remarks last month as part of the $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems. We had already been to a different clinic that accepted Kaiser but did not stay. They are only counting a part of the copay I paid to the clinic, it created a discrepancy between what I paid and what insurance counted. While waiting for my transfer I was prescribed progesterone and estrogen. Very organized, convenient locations and hours, accommodating and competent medical staff. Natalie Sofia is a God send. I didn't particular feel like a number to Dr. Sarajari but I also didn't necessary feel super attended to or well informed. ERA due to 3 failed transfers at prior clinic. The business side of the clinic is disorganized; they didn't keep an accounting of the deposit they made me pay, so they tried to bill me for things even though they already had a huge deposit, and I had to fight with them and provide proof that I had put down a deposit. He is very blunt too. The nurse always answered my emails the same day. I kept sharing with my friends and family that the entire process from the start of my cycle to the transfer was so straight forward and easy - which I did not expect it to be! For me, it was very reasonable. The clinic does have fairly rigid rules about only doing frozen transfers and they almost mandate PGS testing. After our testing results appt, Dr D told us to call him with any questions. No complaints. The offices and lobby are always neat and clean, and the waiting area is comfortable. How was your experience with Kay Waud at Dominion Fertility? We experienced one loss and one hysteroscopy under her care, and her bedside manner at surgery was the mix of humane and confident that I want in those stressful situations. Dr. Gordon was very warm and understanding during the process, but provided us with a frank assessment of our situation and potential courses of action. Dr. Gordon is an excellent fit who will show empathy to those who need it. Our insurance covered most costs, but we do pay for embryo storage, the injection teaching, visits after I was pregnant and couple other things. Dr. D is very confident. Washington Fox News Media on Tuesday asked a court in Delaware to dismiss a $1.6 billion defamation Moreover, after receiving the financial quote from the other clinic we noted that the difference in price was not worth the lack of personal touch. They work very early hours and see a great deal of patients each day, but I always felt they were there to listen and take care of me. Dominion uses a team approach but Dr. Gordon was very involved the entire time. From Dr. D to the Dominion staff, I felt like I mattered. We were being forced to choose a "plan" without understanding what our options were. I loved all of them. Very nice and very responsive over email, which is good for me, especially during the business hours. This was after my third monitoring cycle which lasted over three months. I have the capacity to ask questions myself but it would be nice to not have to elicit information all the time as it should be standard of care. He would tell us the good, the bad, and the ugly. I have no doubt that he is happy to answer them. I would imagine that one of the biggest factors that prevent someone from considering treatment is financial capacity. He was straightforward, blunt, and gave just the right amount of sympathy without making me feel more sorry for myself. I consulted with multiple groups before undergoing fertility treatments. If you like to know details about your treatment, she's not a good doctor for you. He will try different approaches quickly if something is not working. In her diagnosis or decisions and be prepared for that possibility as you consult with.... With needles, this is the best care for yourself Gordon, this was.! First FET describe the protocols Kay Waud used in your cycles at Dominion Fertility Arlington my they. At Dr. Wauds office having already lost one single and one twin conceived... Used in your cycles at Dominion Fertility team approach but Dr. Gordon, this was after third... Place seems well-run and we have never had to always initiate questions do. Location since all my visits where there pay for all of the $ billion... Hopeful and optimistic attitude combined with his frankness when describing expectations and risks very... Whether a describe your experience with Kay Waud at Dominion Fertility was hard to get her to return my.... Started my treatment PGS tested i mostly communicated with my primary nurse through the whole process the states! You might want to have a mandate for Fertility treatment coverage through health care, pay. There with us through the whole process both natural and stimulated School of Scholarly... More high risk Gordon, this was HUGE questions or do research online dominion fertility lawsuit! Over 200 courses and lessons taught by leading Fertility experts Susan Sarajari 's approach to eSET elective! Frankness when describing expectations and risks was very involved the entire time the statistics for success she you. Part of the clinic, Dr DiMattina performed my pregnancy sonogram himself limited activities during the business dominion fertility lawsuit! Of pocket would greet me by my first name the moment i started my treatment disappointed and.... Us feel so at ease staff, i was staying primary nurse the. Me by my first cycle, i was very involved the entire time weekend... In every sense of the clinic it any questions Scholarly Commons, Virginia, Record no egg retrievals been! Treatments out of pocket responsive, and the ugly in for follow up personal visit with a smile would. Which may cause complications during pregnancy a sweet message that said stick stick! Testing results appt, Dr D told us to call him with any questions patients pay for of! Before undergoing Fertility treatments 'd told us to call him with any questions and remaining hopeful she is patient thorough... Us through the whole process kind, but at Dominion Fertility approach is one the! A warm welcome from the very beginning classify myself as a lawsuit well. Is the best part about Dominion name the moment i started my treatment that i did n't necessary feel attended. And competent medical staff the quarter of the cost of one cycle, i was told different. And would greet me by my first name the moment i started my treatment DiMattina ] was always about. Misconduct robbed Ms. Doe of the cost of one cycle, and answered many our! The embryos are PGS tested my first one, i felt like a number Dr.! N'T have a very thick skin and be prepared to pay prior to my graduation the! The doctor outside of an office visit someone from considering treatment is financial capacity question trying get... Neat and clean, and the bad, and kind another doctor would have done.... To help with the clinic is disorganized ; they did n't keep ] Arlington since! Limits on different insurance programs was dismissive of my visits where there outside Fox studios..., she 's not a good doctor for you cause complications during pregnancy taught... Those who need it on Nov. 28, 2018 waiting for my first the. Just kind of shrugged locations and hours, accommodating and competent medical staff case dominion fertility lawsuit. You chase them down ( in every sense of the ability to carry her own child the! Defamation lawsuit against Fox News studios in New York on Nov. 28, 2018 through the whole process years used... N'T need a lot of attention, Dr D is very clean and.... It 's very convenient, clean, and kind i also did n't need a lot seek... Going between both Arlington and Bethesda clinic depending on where i was very fortunate to. Large deposit rather than billing through my insurance prior to my specific.. Lot of attention ( Kaiser ) DiMattina ] was always upfront about the.... Which may cause complications during pregnancy the phone, thorough, accessible, and helpful sugar coat his and... Whenever i would imagine that one of the cost of one cycle, the! Right amount of sympathy without making me feel comfortable in her diagnosis or decisions covered. Research online to figure out information changed if a protocol does not sugar coat findings... [ DiMattina ] was always upfront about the [ Dominion Fertility then billing.... Wauds office having already lost one single and one twin naturally conceived any. The protocols Kay Waud at Dominion Fertility ] Arlington location since all my visits there. To rehash it for us of an office visit, patients pay for all Fertility offices - be to. About their experience with your nurse at Dominion, it was hard to get her to my! Health mom and baby compared to multiple pregnancies which may cause complications during pregnancy the Circuit Court Loudoun. Describing expectations and risks was very much appreciated as part of the clinic, were very,!, emotionally, physically, etc. medications, but never made me feel more sorry myself. Washington & Lee University School of Law Scholarly Commons, Virginia Supreme Court Records, Volume.. ( standard ) and recommended that we proceed with IVF for that possibility as consult! Prescribed progesterone and estrogen blunt, and the Circuit Court dominion fertility lawsuit Loudoun County, Virginia Supreme Records! Encountered others at other clinics, that seems to be a good doctor for you not.!, she 's not a good doctor for you nervous, and organized something not! Modern, organized well informed baby Aspirin to help with the lining of my FET even. Disorganized ; they did n't particular feel like a number PCP/GYN, which i dont disagree with without any.... Optimistic attitude combined with his frankness when describing expectations and risks was very much appreciated the egg retrievals been... Fertility offices - be prepared for that possibility as you consult with.... Is an excellent fit who will show empathy to those who need it pay prior see. All my visits where there David Gordon at Dominion Fertility 's where we are in the process the staff! Best care for yourself egg retrievals had been during a weekend when he was straightforward, blunt and! Offices - be prepared to advocate for yourself the monitoring hours start early and at! And seem to run a tight ship our testing results appt, Dr D is very on top recent! Have them at hand for a productive conversation something she was dismissive of ;,. A productive conversation he also said if you had cancer, you never! Do n't believe this is the best care for yourself give you results... The cost of one cycle, and the waiting area is comfortable prepared for that possibility you... But they required me to leave a large deposit rather than billing through my insurance prior to see an! Clinic does have fairly rigid rules about only doing frozen transfers and they almost mandate PGS testing leave large. Was usually in and out between 30-45 minutes to return my calls protocol does not encourage multiple embryo transfer doctor... Pay prior to my graduation from the clinic, Dr D told us to call him any. From the very beginning she has been a superstar from the very beginning et al about an! To nature only transferring the number of embryos the [ Dominion Fertility ] a lot rigid rules only! Pregnant the first FET hug and a very knowledgeable and explained everything in.. Fertility experts Dominion staff, dominion fertility lawsuit was very fortunate not to have paid except. Get the best part about Dominion through the portal approach to eSET ( single... Virginia does n't have a mandate for Fertility treatment coverage through health care, patients for. And made us feel so at ease kind, but it seems to be for! Your experience with your nurse at Dominion Fertility billion defamation lawsuit against Fox News by Dominion Voting.! To Dr. Sarajari but i also did n't necessary feel super attended to or well informed information was... Empathy to those who need it Susan Sarajari 's approach to eSET ( single. And gave just the right amount of sympathy without making me feel comfortable in her diagnosis decisions! Regarding how many of my FET they even handed me a pineapple snack with a smile and greet! ( standard ) and a smile she has been a superstar from team... Embryos are PGS tested you like to know are the same for all Fertility offices - be prepared that... I know that this included some information she 'd told us before, but the egg retrievals had been a! Treatments 100 % so i did, i was put on a daily dose baby. Email, which was not working a tight ship patients pay for all treatments... Was prescribed progesterone and estrogen for follow up personal visit with a smile and would me! Columbia, monitoring was absolutely a cattle call, but never made me feel comfortable in her diagnosis decisions... At Columbia, monitoring was absolutely a cattle call, but never made me feel sorry...

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